Burnout Is Not A Badge Of Honour

Don’t sacrifice your future health and wellbeing.
In this engaging episode, host Dianne Flemington sits down with Amber and Margaret, two dynamic leaders who share their passion for tackling burnout and promoting mental well-being. Amber, a neuroscience enthusiast with a background in digital strategy and psychology, and Margaret, a seasoned leader in people and culture with over 20 years of experience, discuss how their unique coaching perspectives brought them together to address burnout—a challenge many face in today’s high-pressure environments.

The conversation dives into the critical importance of recognizing and addressing burnout early. Amber and Margaret explain how burnout manifests not only at the individual level but also within teams and entire organizations. They share insightful research findings, including their use of tools like the Burnout Assessment Tool (BAT), which helps individuals and teams gauge mental distancing, cognitive impairment, emotional imbalance, and physical exhaustion.

Throughout the episode, Amber and Margaret emphasize that burnout doesn't happen in isolation—its ripple effect impacts families, friends, and social environments. They also explore the barriers preventing leaders from openly addressing burnout, and they offer practical solutions for creating healthier work cultures that can recognize and respond to early signs of stress.

Key Takeaways:

• Burnout often goes unnoticed until it's too late, so taking early action is essential.
• Tools like BAT help identify early symptoms of burnout, allowing for proactive intervention.
• Emotional granularity, or the ability to precisely label and understand emotions, plays a crucial role in managing stress and maintaining mental health.
• Changing organizational culture is essential to supporting leaders and teams, with a focus on creating psychologically safe environments.

Amber and Margaret also talk about their work with organizations, offering tailored coaching programs that address burnout at both the individual and team levels. Their holistic approach incorporates neuroscience-backed methods that build resilience and enhance performance while preventing long-term mental and physical health issues.

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to the "Burn Brightly" podcast for more in-depth conversations on burnout, leadership, and personal well-being. Whether you're a leader looking to support your team or someone struggling with burnout yourself, Amber and Margaret offer valuable insights and practical tools to help navigate the challenges of modern work life.

Links:

• Listen to the Burn Brightly Podcast: Burn Brightly on Spotify
• Follow Burn Brightly on LinkedIn: Burn Brightly on LinkedIn

This episode is packed with actionable advice and real-life examples, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in maintaining well-being while excelling in today’s fast-paced work environments.

Thanks for listening. Feel free to follow the Leadership Longevity conversation on LinkedIn as well.
Just click here

Transcript

Dianne Flemington: 0:20

Music, welcome to The Healthy Aging coach podcast. I'm your coach. Dianne Flemington, well, hello tribe. Today we have two amazing women, and I'm going to introduce them individually, just so you can get a sense of the impact that they're creating in the world around them. So Margaret has 20 plus years as a people and culture leader, she's taken her passion for working with people to the next level as a leadership team and career coach with the multi dimensional aspects of our lives. There are so many factors at play, and Margaret brings her background in nutritional therapy into the mix when appropriate, so often this is where our mental and physical health starts. She's a podcaster on the burn Brett Lee podcast and currently training for a 35 kilometer charity walk. Loves being active and outdoors. Amber, she is a self identified, confident geek with a passion for neuroscience, psychology, economics and, of course, coaching all ways to more deeply understand human behavior. She's a recovering perfectionist with an extensive background in digital strategy, analytics and agile, and Amber is very familiar with the challenges of digital transformation and organizational change. As a coach, Amber partners with leaders to identify the internal narratives that drive behaviors and decisions, then consciously adapts that narrative to create a new one. Amazing to have both these leaders with us today, and we'll hold out for their joining on our podcast. And so let's get this conversation started. Welcome Amber Margaret, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Dianne. So the big burning question that we got going on, no pun intended, is, why is recognizing burnout and taking action so important? But before we get into that with the tribe and share that with them, the most important question for me right now is, Hey, how did the two of you come to work together on this topic in that podcast?

Unknown: 2:22

So it was just coming up to or just past two years ago. Now, Margaret and I met each other virtually as coaches doing peer coaching, where you practice on each other, give each other feedback. It's an ongoing part of coaching and making sure that you're building your skills, and we would often end up talking about different themes and things that were coming through, not only details, of course, but what we noticed is that there were so many discussions about burnout, or around burnout, the word wasn't necessarily used, but there were really clear Signs of it. And I remember, for me in particular, I had a client who was really concerned about it, and I referred him to his GP, and didn't feel comfortable to work with him at all because I didn't have any understanding of how to see how far along he was, etc. So Margaret and I were having all these discussions and started to collect all the research. And we didn't have a clear goal at that point. It was really to understand it more deeply. Margaret, do you want to continue? Thanks. And I think, yeah, from there, things just grew. It was very clear with with our passions, like there was something here that we wanted to explore further. As Amber said, we didn't know what we've both got different backgrounds, but there was just this, this desire to do more, and we realized that through the process, there are going to be people that we need to refer to, to professionals, but there was actually probably a lot we could do through our coaching work and through what became burn brightly to support individuals through and organizations through that journey. So it's fair to say that's how we came together. And believe it or not, as Amber said, two years we actually have never met each other in person, but we will do next month. Yeah, only a few weeks away. Yeah, so we launched burn brightly December, two years ago, after six months of research, so lots and lots of research and interviews and conversations and figuring out, you know, what was the best source of information and insight,

Dianne Flemington: 4:36

the tribe talks a lot about, I mean, they use the word stress a lot, and I find that when I'm discussing with them, I'm trying to dive deeper into what specifically is it about it, you know, symptomatics. But what I loved about when I met you both, and what you're up to is you bring a lot of I'm gonna, I'm gonna use the words like you bring great words to help people explore. And get clear on specifically what it is they're going through. So I think let's start at the beginning. And you know, why is recognizing burnout and taking action so important right now?

Unknown: 5:16

The consequence of not is just so great, and recognizing it can be hard to do when you're in it. It can also be hard to do when you might want to bury your head, because organizationally, it's not the done thing, but the impact is on an individual at an individual level, that then goes to families, friends and the social environment around that, and then it's an organizational impact and so, and we do see from the research, and there's a lot around this, the manifestations organizationally, you start seeing absenteeism, job satis, dissatisfaction, presenteeism. So there's not the productivity at an individual and personal level. The emotional and physical and mental impact is huge. And we're talking about things like diabetes, we're talking about heart conditions. There is just so much there that, if left unaddressed, manifests itself. And it's that ripple effect that's so negative. And you know, even things around dementia and depression and insomnia, and I'm not going to get into that, but it's just, if you can nip it in the bud or do something in the early days, it's preferable, if prevention is not a possible then at least taking early action, because the ripple effect, as I said, individually and beyond, is just so big. So that's why it's just, we have to talk about it and take action if I can build on that as well, because there's the immediate impacts. So even if you're not burnt out, if you're heading that way, you're actually not performing. And lots of people think that they are. You know, when you're regularly working long days, you're not taking breaks, your brain is actually not performing anywhere near as well as you think you are. And you see this in the burnout assessments. You know, some of the signs are cognitive impairment and its problems with memory and attention, decision making, and ultimately, so many of our jobs these days are entirely about decision making. There's also emotional impairment. And if you're emotionally impaired and not able to regulate your emotions, particularly as a leader, you're not going to be creating a particularly psychologically safe environment. So then you know that is like Margaret's talking about that ripple effect and the contagion effect potentially. So if you're starting to feel that way, your performance is already suffering, and that is measurable and proven through so many different pieces of research. And I know I'm sorry, Dan, I was going to say important, as Amber's talked, she touched on some of those signs or what you can see, it's when the behavior you're noticing is not the person's or your own usual behavior, because it's that's the benchmark. There isn't a one size fits all. If somebody is constantly, you know, somebody might be forgetful, and that's how they've always been, that's okay, but it's when that changes as well. And I just think it's really important there are frameworks and there are guidelines, and there's things to look out for, but you've got to see the individual person for their journey and what's going on for them.

Dianne Flemington: 8:27

Yeah, so super important. There's this line that you're drawing between the self first, like recognizing it in our self first, but then also having that capability to be able to recognize across. And I'm going to reach even further, and not just the leaders in their teams, but inside the organization, right what? How can we support? And it feels to me, it like it's a silent conversation right now, there's lots of reasons why we don't talk about feeling burnt out out loud, like leaders aren't allowed to express it to their teams, and so you, you talked about why we should care about it, and I'm going to just tap in here with the tribe for a minute. Margaret mentioned something how it builds into illness, and we know that chronic, preventable chronic diseases, stress is one of the top four factors to lead into a preventable chronic disease. So just to kind of hammer that down, and your minds a bit for the tribe is and any listener right now is really about just do a check in. And I'm hoping that, well, Margaret and Amber will do a little bit with us today, like, what are we might be noticing, but what are some of the signs of burnout that can that are leading up to, rather than just noticing when we're already in it, what can we start noticing in advance?

Unknown: 9:48

One of the big ones is meant what they call mental distancing. So Margaret and I use the burnout assessment tool, which was developed in Belgium at KU Leuven University, and then this tool. Is actually developed by looking at all of almost all of the other burnout tools, so all of the peer reviewed tools. And then they actually simplified it down to a list of either 12 or 23 questions, depending on how you're delivering it. So they had four areas. And mental distancing is basically when you're at that point where you just don't care. What's the point? And this is really important one, because a lot of people are actually quite passionate about their work, particularly when they have a healthy work environment. They have autonomy. They can see progress. If you get into the point where it just doesn't seem to make any difference, or the workload is so out of control that you're never going to catch up, or you're not being recognized, and you just why bother? That is one of the signs, one of the four signs of burnout, and that you may start to see in people as well, that you work with that you know well. And as Amber said, that's one you get cognitive impairment, which is that can be when your memory problems, concentration is not quite there as it was before. Emotional impairment, I think, is really interesting. It's are people responding disproportionately to something, and there may be heightened emotional responses, and that can sometimes be something to recognize quite early in yourself as well. It's, why did I cry? Why did I shout? Why did I, you know, and it's recognizing that and in yourself exhaustion. I think it's the fourth dimension, and that can be an interesting one in this busy world that we live in, where there's always so much happening, is that exhaustion tied to something else, beyond the full day or diary or commitments or family things going on? And sometimes that's when we need the mirror held up to us. But it is, as Amber said, when you're noticing things, am I normally quite calm and open to having a good discussion, and I'm not irritable or short. Am I noticing heart palpitations? Do I have more headaches than normal? So there's the physical and emotional responses that we can notice in our own bodies as a really good indicator of something's not quite right.

Dianne Flemington: 12:18

Those are brilliant. I'm actually going through, like a body scan right now, as you're talking because I'm a big breath holder when I get stressed, or even on forms of concentration, like deep concentration, I'm a breath holder, which I know can amplify, you know, symptoms of stress, so on the body. So very interesting. How do we where do we begin with this? When it comes to addressing how we deal with teams, or talking about it with team members,

Unknown: 12:51

there's a couple of different ways, depending on whether you're going to work with just one individual, so potentially the leader, and then work with them first, or if you're working with the broader team. So Margaret and I use two different assessments in the workplace. One is the bat tool that we've mentioned, and then the other one is the Jas C, which is different factors that can impact your ability to respond and manage a situation, and we can provide a link with the full detail. But what we see this is based on a neuroscientist, Dr David Rock, who'd developed the scarf framework back in 2004 so 20 years old, we've updated it with the newer neuroscience learnings. So a sense of justice, that things are a fair sense of autonomy. Do I have the ability to manage my day, to choose how I do my work, am I recognized so is there a sense of progress and my effort and expertise is recognized? Stability and structure for some people is very important. Some people not so much. Social support is a huge one. And I'm sure, working in the space of longevity, you know the amount of research around that, but social support, when you're at work, someone that can actually check in with you and that you can ask for help and offer help to having capacity to offer help and challenge so you can actually burn out from apathy, not having enough challenge. So we use these to understand where is the level of burnout at, and then where are the areas that different people are actually not getting what they need? Because if you have those factors, that's actually going to help you deal with a much more difficult work environment and a much higher workload, because you can respond in ways that work for you, that may be very different for somebody else.

Dianne Flemington: 14:43

Yeah, I have a question. But is there anything you want to add to that right now? Margaret, no. So my question is because I work a lot with performing teams, high performing teams, fast forming teams, and when I'm partnering with leaders to do. Do a lot of what we do on the front end is what in the days were called psychological safety. Now it's psychosocial safety, and it feels like burnouts in there too. Now, like, what are we assessing in terms of our capability? What's the what's the structure to build that safety so a team member can go to a leader, or a leader can go to a C suite or executive and say, this is where I'm at, like I'm feeling stretched, or whatever verbiage they use.

Unknown: 15:35

I think this is one of the hurdles that Amber and I do find is that conversation, that dialog needs to exist at an organizational level there. It's not about blame or it's not about pointing fingers. It's about recognizing the value of having these conversations and understanding you know, are the systems and processes in the organization causing undue stress, prep, stuff that's becoming unworkable, that's contributing to this? And I think I know this isn't quite answering that question yet, but it is. One of those first hurdles is just getting the C suite to talk about it. It's not this, it happens, and let's have a conversation to then put something in place to mitigate it. But people, I think, are quite scared, because especially now with the psychosocial has it made it even scarier to talk about, because it's admitting something is there, and so then we often see, what are you as the individual, going to do? So it gets pushed down to that individual level, and we do talk about locus of control, there are things that we can do, but there are also things that leaders and organizations need to take. So I know that didn't quite answer. I'll hand over to Amber to talk about that process, but I think it's a very rare we need to be honest about it. It's a hard conversation to have because of stigma attached to it. Yeah.

Dianne Flemington: 16:59

So just before you jump in amber, there is what I think you're pointing to. And there's also in organizations as a culture, right? And we a culture of, you know, hiding what's actually going on and not talking about the reality of our emotions or struggles or challenges. Or are we a culture of, like, Let's build it up, like, bring it out and deal with it, and then, yeah, got it.

Unknown: 17:21

And does high performance come at any cost? So that's, let's burnouts expected work in those hours doing that, and we perform well because of that. Or is there that conversation to Amber's earlier point, that actually those things we think are driving this right behavior or outcome are actually not long term and sustainable,

Dianne Flemington: 17:43

yeah? And in the discussions that we have, even the tribe and the leaders that are part of the tribe, that's their that's their go to response all the time is, well, that's just the way it is. You know, they're in a hyper growth, you know, tech business, that's just the way it is. So, yeah, oh, I can't this is juicy. This is really juicy, ladies,

Unknown: 18:06

it's super juicy to provide a practical next step, potentially, particularly if people are in a team in a culture that does reward and recognize, you know, long hours and burnout inducing behaviors, one of the things that can start to drive some change at a team level is to not just have a team charter or a social contract. Most people have that agreement. This is how we're going to interact. This is how we'll run meetings. This is how we'll call each other out, but to actually check in on that regularly, and when I say regularly, I mean at least fortnightly, so making sure that that's a living document that when people join the team, or the team disperses and and re bans together, that everybody can actually rate how they are feeling working within that team for the most recent time frame, and then work through what are the things that we're going to do to make our team work in a more effective, more supportive way? And the key is actually holding each other accountable. So everybody is holding each other accountable. It's not all on the leader, and this has two really big impacts, in that it is actually encouraging people to speak out and rewarding them for that. So you're starting to build psychological safety if the leader can handle that. But it's also actually taking pressure off the leader, and the leaders are more likely to burn out than the team. When you look at the statistics, it's about 10% higher in Australia, at least. So when they don't have to constantly be pulling people up and they're not there all of the time anyway, that takes pressure off. You'll also find that if the team members are recognizing what they're doing well, that is actually more powerful for their peers to be recognized by a peer than it is to be recognized by the leader, and again, is taking more pressure. Off the leader. So most people have that tool, but they don't use it. They don't go back to it. They don't involve the team.

Dianne Flemington: 20:08

What change?

Unknown: 20:11

What do we make up?

Dianne Flemington: 20:12

What do we make up about why they don't use it?

Unknown: 20:16

Because it's important to do the work. You know, we got to do the tasks, get the job done, and cross the thing off the to do list. Let's move on to the next thing. When you start to build that culture of looking back and going, what do we do well, and what do we want to do again, and what do we want to change? Then you start to create that conversation, because you only change culture at an organizational level level by changing the way that people interact at a team level, yeah, yeah, and sometimes that's where the start is that team piece, because you can't boil the ocean. So where can you start in that immediate sphere? Because if the long hours are recognized and rewarded, then how can you make those changes closer to home? Because going against the flow is not easy.

Dianne Flemington: 21:02

Yeah. So where's the biggest sting? That's my language. Maybe you have a different word for it. When you when both of you, not if you work together individually into an organization, what's the big I call it the biggest thing, like, where's your starting point? Is it C suite. Is it frontline leaders? Where is it normal? Is there a who's taking this up faster, like who's the ones wanting to bring this type of conversation to life? Is there? Is there a level of organization that seems to be more adaptive right now, into this conversation,

Unknown: 21:39

you have to have that C suite sponsorship. You know it has to be important to the C suite. And the interesting thing here is that it's always been important that the psychosocial regulations mean that there's that extra layer of we need to actually focus on this. So I know a lot of businesses now don't just do engagement surveys with their employees. They also do wellbeing surveys, and then they need to act on those, because there's nothing more demotivating than providing feedback to somebody, and they don't do anything with it. So Margaret and I work with a lot of people in HR, this being typically that space in HR, but it really does need that support and involvement and calling out at the C suite level, even if the work is actually happening elsewhere in the organization.

Dianne Flemington: 22:31

So I'm curious, can you help the tribe our leaders and organizations that see this as a concern, how might, where do they go in order to, you know, bring in consultants or, you know, support like you into the organization. If they're not sitting in HR, how would you recommend they start the conversation?

Unknown: 22:52

I mean, some of them have reached out, and it's quite interesting to see the people that have come on their own personal journeys as leaders, either because they themselves are experiencing what they recognize as burnout, or because they recognize their team is going through something and they don't feel equipped. So through LinkedIn, through Amber and I either burn brightly or individually, to just reach out and say, you know, let's start the conversation. This is what's going on. What are my options? Where can I go? But you get, as Amber said, the C suite and some of those senior sponsors and exec will reach out, but it's also encouraging people when they've got it going on for themselves, that is a great starting point, because you don't want somebody to have to walk in those shoes, necessarily, but that's your burning platform often, because they just feel ill equipped to help themselves or their team. So for our programs, Amber said we use assessments. Those are very useful data points, but it's not a vanilla off the shelf program. It's about understanding what's going on for the individual, the team, the organization, and then tailoring that approach to what's needed. So it definitely starts with a conversation in a very non judgmental, curious, let's explore what's there with the aim to get to a better place.

Dianne Flemington: 24:12

Yeah, I'm just over here going when I was reading some of your content before we started the interview. You you there's a word that I keep seeing in the world called Emotional granularity, something to do with the more acutely aware we are of our emotions. It supports our conversation and our well being. Can the both of you speak into that and how it you know is part of what you both are up to,

Unknown: 24:39

absolutely. So Lisa Feldman Barrett's done a lot of work in this space along with other neuroscientists, and it's quite amazing the impact of being able to more precisely label your emotions. So if you feel like crap and you say you. I feel like crap, and you label it as that, or I feel angry, it's harder to actually think about, well, what am I going to do if, if you know, Oh, I feel frustrated or I'm disappointed or I'm furious, there's three very different things that can point to different next steps, different ways of handling that emotion, and then when you actually express that to other people, they can help you in a more precise way as well. What I found fascinating reading Lisa's work is that the impact of this, it's not just about how it impacts you in the moment, in being able to regulate and process your emotions, it's also actually impacting your mental health in the long term, and your physical health. You are less likely to get sick if you have a higher level of emotional granularity. So one of the tools I've been using for the past just under three months now, which I can provide the link for. It's an app called how we feel, and it actually prompts you, you know, however, many times a day. So I have it prompting me twice. It prompts you How do you feel, and it gives you the different emotions you can choose from. And it's very, very helpful to see the patterns, to be able to start to use different labels and to see the impact,

Dianne Flemington: 26:25

the mood meter was the one that I was introduced to years ago. Gosh, his name escapes me right now. Mark, what I look for his book over on my Yeah, can't remember his name, but he did a lot of work with Yale, and is doing a lot of work with Yale and some of the schools on the east coast to bring this to life, even with youth, right? So them recognizing how important it is for us to be able to call out our deeper level emotions and name them and work with them. Lovely. This work,

Unknown: 27:00

that app is actually part of that research. You have the option to submit like, to allow them to access that as part of their research. Or you can say, No, you don't have to give them access to your data. So, yeah, it's built on month's work. Oh,

Dianne Flemington: 27:15

brilliant. Yeah, excellent. So what's the feedback you're getting so far on emotional granularity. When you bring that to life in the workplace,

Unknown: 27:25

it's interesting in that it's a relatively simple tool and piece of information, but the challenge is in using it regularly. And for some people, sometimes they can't necessarily see the value of of doing that, you know. They'll say they see it, but then they don't actually follow up. And I think from what I've seen, that's fairly common. And Margaret may be able to talk to this a little bit more around actually making habitual changes, you know, and you you potentially don't see the value of that until you've done it for a period of time, but that is actually what builds your health in the long run. Wow, okay, yeah, I was gonna say it is about helping somebody see the value in creating that new habit. And I mean, obviously as coaches, we know that it's not for us to say it's for them to experience it. And sometimes, when you do work with people that may be experiencing that overwhelm, that exhaustion, to even try and think about bringing something new in in itself, is just too hard. And so that is probably the tension point of, how do you introduce something new that needs a bit of time and input, not a lot, but it does need consistency to bring about change. When adding something new can feel overwhelming, so it's, you know, what is? What are you taking out? What can you replace it with? To Amber's point, twice a day. Do we start with once? Do we just sort of bring something in that allows somebody to to be able to start seeing the tangible change. And, you know, let's be honest, if you're working with emotions, often within organizations, that's just don't deal with emotions. It's all about, you know, just get the job done. And so again, that can be something that's seen as a topic we don't go into. So it's creating the comfort with, how do we tap into that? Because it's so positive, rather than being something we just want to avoid.

Dianne Flemington: 29:27

So what are you both suggesting that gets done? So they've done, you know, they picked up the app, the mood meter, or the how we feel up, and they're identifying these patterns. Then what? Then? What do you recommend they do with that data or information.

Unknown: 29:42

So over time, it gives you data, for example, time of day you're more likely to feel a certain way, time of day, or when you're commuting, when you're with certain people. You can if you want to, I actually don't, but you can put in, like, sleep. Weather did i x? Exercise that day, etc. And so it does take a bit of time to typically get those insights to go and to avoid confidentiality issues. I'll provide a personal example. One of the things that surprised me was that I to, you know, pretty much all of my friends and a lot of people I've worked with, I'm very organized, and I'm very good at organizing. Turns out I hate it. It really stresses me out. And I didn't really realize this, but I consistently feel pressured or frustrated. You know, if you've got to chase someone up multiple times, and so organizing is something that actually puts me into the red space, which is that, you know, kind of angry, furious, frustrated space. And it's one of the few things that gets me into that space, which was quite funny to see. So I'm actually thinking about, how do I let go of some of the organizing actually say, Look, I don't want to do that, or just ask somebody to. And then also chunk my organizing into times when I have naturally have energy and I can get it done without it feeling rushed. So that's an example where it then gives you an idea of, oh, okay, well, I still have to organize. You know, when you have two businesses, etc, you've got to be very organized. It's about, when do I do that? What can I delegate? What can I outsource? Yeah, and what I love about what Amber's just shared on so I get excited when, when we work with organizations, it's you need to have the real conversations. What's working, what's not, but when you lead with your strengths and the preferences and what are your natural talents, and then you look at the team, sure who's good at organizing that enjoys it and gets energy from it, versus somebody who doesn't, it, doesn't mean you don't have to do it, and you pick your times and you prioritize, but let's recognize what are our strengths, what are those spaces that we love, and dial that up and let others in the team pick up the slack. And that's the beauty of having those real conversations. Sure, we've all got to do stuff that we don't like, but recognizing the impact that then has on us. So I know that I'm not going to leave it to a Friday afternoon or if I've got to give a feedback session, and I just know that I struggle with that, I do it, and I can then go and have a walk and I'm out and I don't have to have another meeting. So it's not just let's focus on burnout or habits or it's bringing the whole picture together, the whole person, the whole team, in the context of the systems of the organization or your community or your family. Because obviously, we don't operate in isolation. Yeah,

Dianne Flemington: 32:41

sure. Gosh, I'm noticing time already. So I want to just put it out to the both of you. Is there anything that you want the tribe to know that we haven't covered yet, that we should be you know, that you'd want to share some detail about

Unknown: 32:57

I would highlight and Margaret, let's bounce off each other here, because I think that's when we work best. Something that is very clear in the neuroscience research, which I'm continuing to which is that your expectations will change your experience. And the two things I'd highlight here is, if you go into something expecting to see certain behaviors or expecting, you know, negative outcomes you'll be looking for that. Your brain will literally be looking for that. But the biggest thing in relation to longevity and burnout is that stress can be very good for you, and your beliefs about stress, shape your experience of that. So some great research by Ali Crum actually showed a video to a group of people that talked about all the negative impacts of stress, and then to a different group or the positive impacts of stress, and it literally changed the way they experienced it, and it changed their body. For example, there's also a couple of experiments with rats. They're not humans, but when one rat runs in a little circle, the other rat had to run. The rat that had the choice that went, I'm going to do this thing, had all of these positive physical benefits and these positive data brainwaves. The rat that didn't have choice, that couldn't decide, didn't get the positive brainwaves, but also got basically no physical benefit from running. So when you choose to do something hard, when you look at something and go, Okay, this might be stressful, but I'm going to learn from it that is a very, very different both mental, emotional and physical experience that you are creating for yourself. It

Dianne Flemington: 34:54

feels like that taps into something called healthy tension. Is that? Yeah, so we talk. About that a bit in the tribe here, like, where are you in healthy tension and where are you in over extension, right? So did you want to add something to that? Margaret, I love that Amber

Unknown: 35:09

picked that up because that's kind of where my head was going when you said that. And it builds onto a couple of concepts. One is to that point, like stress gives us that buzz, that excitement we need it? It's recognizing your own personal when is that too much? When do I just need that little circuit breaker? And that could be any number of things. Is it breath work? Is it movement? Is it whatever? But it is even saying, oh, I need a break. The levels are building up. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's it's your circuit breaker. And then I think the other concept, which will be familiar to people, is your locus of control. Dial it back what's in my control, and therefore bring the focus to that. Stop worrying about I want to go for a run, and it might rain, it might bring it back to what you can do. And I just think those are important extensions of that mindset. Piece. I always say what you focus on grows, and so when it's that realistic, it's this could be quite gritty, but that's okay. I've got the tools I need to get through it, versus, oh my gosh, how am I ever going to do this? Are two very different approaches,

Dianne Flemington: 36:24

absolutely. And I think one of you mentioned earlier about that belief mechanism behind why do I feel like I have to be doing this to the level of degree it's creating this much stress. Like, what's the meaning I'm making about this that might need to be recreated? Where did I learn this behavior from? Yeah, okay, this has been amazing. I feel like I could just sit and have a warm drink with the both of you and suck all your knowledge out. So I sounds to me tribe. These are two very resourceful ladies who have real practical and engaging ways to support you through any levels of burnout, for yourself, but also for your teams or family systems, or I'm making the assumption, but do you two work outside of organizations as well, in terms of Yeah, yeah,

Unknown: 37:13

community groups and things, we both work with individuals at times, and we've also run open programs with groups of people, so where we have six to eight people in in group workshops and personal coaching. So

Dianne Flemington: 37:30

brilliant, yeah. So the links that we'll provide for the tribe that have that will give you access to Amber and Margaret will be towards their business page on LinkedIn. But also, I highly recommend you subscribe to the podcast burn bright and start getting a sense of from their conversations and interviews where what the landscape for your burnout looks like. So if you feel compelled or need or want to or even curious to reach out to these two, you have a starting place to start expressing to them, you know, in terms of what burnout has been looking like for you. So that I really recommend the podcast as a brilliant starting place. And we cannot let anybody off this, this podcast without asking our three fire seat questions. But before I launch into that, would the two of you want to share anything else with the tribe, before I grab you into pull you into your mindset of aging,

Unknown: 38:32

thank you so much for having us on. Dianne, I love this type of conversation, and the work that you're doing is so valuable. So thank you. Really appreciate it. Ditto from me. To bring this together with what you do is just amazing. So thank you.

Dianne Flemington: 38:47

Yeah, well, you both as well. So I look forward to somehow seeing down the road how well this is, you know, being impacting the worlds around us. It's all for the better and good. All right, Amber, let's start with you. I know you need to jump soon, and I respect that. So to what age are you wanting to live your life to

Unknown: 39:06

somewhere in my 90s? Yeah, and

Dianne Flemington: 39:09

what will that allow you to be do or have by living into your 90s,

Unknown: 39:15

that will allow me a fair amount of time after I retire at some point in my 60s, to continue to research and learn and connect, you know, with other geeks, to spend lots of time in nature. So I have a big goal to, you know, maintain my muscle mass and my movement so I can keep hiking and potentially bike riding, maybe skiing and just, you know, enjoy time learning in nature and with friends and family brilliant.

Dianne Flemington: 39:46

It feels like you're encompassing all the aspects of wellness in there as well. And what is something that scares you about growing older?

Unknown: 39:54

I think for me, it is any sort of disease that. Leads to cognitive decline and dementia. So, you know, I just think they're very, very difficult things to handle. My stepfather's got Parkinson's, and he's actually very inspirational. But, you know, I love learning, and I love having a sense of autonomy and agency. So that is one thing that does scare me about getting older. Yeah,

Dianne Flemington: 40:21

how do you manage that fear?

Unknown: 40:24

Um, I think it's partly by doing things that I've learned support your brain health, and it's also by recognizing that there's only so much that I can do and that, you know, we'll have to go sometime. So you don't get to choose how that is. You just get to choose how you spend

Dianne Flemington: 40:48

your time. So who's the coolest older person you know, alive or dead?

Unknown: 40:54

So I thought about this, but I I just kept coming back. It may sound corny, but I just kept coming back to my mum. She is in her 70s. She is very active and healthy, but she's also a big practical joker who's super cheeky and funny. So, you know, I just think that is a really amazing balance that even you know, with running her business and with being a carer for my stepdad and currently a carer for my younger brother, who's just about to finish chemo, she somehow still manages to manage her health, you know, to be funny and cheeky and loving and, you know, to take time for herself. And I think that is inspirational. Oh,

Dianne Flemington: 41:42

definitely, wow. You've given us some big gifts in that statement, your mom sounds like a force to meet.

Unknown: 41:50

I need to meet her as well as you next month,

Dianne Flemington: 41:55

perhaps a guest on the podcast. Lovely. Thank you, Amber. And just to declare and be transparent if you have to jump off Absolutely, that's totally go.

Unknown: 42:05

I've another six, seven. Okay,

Dianne Flemington: 42:08

beautiful Margaret, how about you? What's What age are you wanting to live to? I had always

Unknown: 42:13

thought 100 was a nice round number, since we started engaging with you and you've got the 120 I'm thinking, Oh, do I need a stretch target? I'm probably, I'm probably comfortable at the 100 for now. Yeah,

Dianne Flemington: 42:27

got it. And what's that going to allow you to be do, or have to live to 100

Unknown: 42:33

it's not dissimilar to Amber. I just want to be able to be free in nature, walk, paddleboard, ride, sit, and just enjoy that at a time when I don't have the other pressures of life going on, you know, with what you do when you're running your own business. So it's just being able to explore and be curious, and I hope to still be traveling and going to new places and experiencing new things,

Dianne Flemington: 43:05

nice and what is something that scares you about growing older?

Unknown: 43:10

I grapple with this because the cognitive side absolutely and dealing with some of that closer to home at the moment, but also the physical. And I think the physical is something I'd probably taken for granted for a big chunk of my life, until I've seen it now eventuate with with a loved one, to not be able to get up and move your body is it's now another complexity. So for a long time, it was the cognitive the physical has now become something I'm very acutely aware of. Yeah, to just not be able to do what you want to do when you want to do it

Dianne Flemington: 43:51

is scary, yeah? And how do you manage that fear? Margaret,

Unknown: 43:55

by all that I can on a day to day basis, to keep my strength, to nourish myself, to make smart, wise choices that are right for me, but not taking it to that extreme overwhelm obsession point and reckon, I do a lot of reading, always looking at, you know, what could I be doing? What's the latest? Knowing that that changes so by keeping informed is really important to me and then taking action, but also knowing that you've got to turn up and live life. So don't get too sucked and I'm not, don't get too sucked into that.

Dianne Flemington: 44:31

Yeah, yeah. Where focus goes, right? Yes. So who's the coolest, older person you know, alive or dead?

Unknown: 44:41

I really struggled with this because it's a question. I always go, oh, I don't know, but David Attenborough came to mind. And the reason for that is he's so focused. He's outdoors. He gets out there, he walks the talk. He is older, and he is still doing what he loves. Right? And what he loves keeps him mentally and physically invested, and there's a greater good in that. So I've seen him speak live when he came to Melbourne ages ago, and he's just fascinating. So he's somebody I just think is pretty amazing. Brilliant.

Dianne Flemington: 45:17

Ladies, you two have been phenomenal. Thank you so much. The tribe is gifted by having heard the two of you today and seen you. If they're watching you, they to speak to the tribe for a moment. You will give be given access to the areas that Amber and Margaret. So if you'd like to work with them or learn more about what they're up to, you'll be able to reach out to them and bring your issue, challenge, concern, question or curiosity. Lovely, generous women who are doing good in the world. And I now I can call friends. Thanks for joining the community and supporting and I hope to see you both again soon, and what you've been up to in creating in the World, you take care of that. Thank

Unknown: 46:03

you. Dianne, you