The Sandwich Generation with Jacqui Brauman: Will and Estates Lawyer

In this episode with Jacqui Brauman, Estate and Wills lawyer.  Jacqui wants you to consider that for your peace of mind, don’t leave financial and end of life conversations or getting your affairs in order until it’s too late. Prevention in legal matters, like in medicine, is better than trying to find a cure later.

You can find Jacquie and all her wisdom at:

TBA Law: https://linktr.ee/TBA_Law

Legally Wise women: https://linktr.ee/legallywise 

Thanks for listening. Feel free to follow the Leadership Longevity conversation on LinkedIn as well.
Just click here

Transcript

Dianne Flemington: 0:22

Welcome to The Healthy Ageing coach podcast. I'm your coach Dianne Flemington. Hello tribe Welcome to another episode of the Healthy Ageing coach. I am again very excited. I wish I could come up with another word that needs to be a new word and then excited. But I met this I was introduced to Jackie who's going to be our guest today and felt immediately aligned. And I'm really hoping that you will have that same feeling as I had. So I'm having her on today to discuss them wills and estate, but I want to read to you her biography or autobiography or details here because pretty substantial. So Jackie helps families plan for their future in the event of an emergency or death by getting their affairs in order through her family legacy plan TBA law. She's also the founder of legally wise women, which brings together otherwise empowered women and an online community who lack confidence with the legal issue to go from confronted to courageous that they can have better control over the outcomes in a variety of situations and negotiate what they want successfully with less costs. That's amazing. Jackie Brown men created TBA law in 2012, providing legal services to families in Melbourne and regional Victoria, focusing on estate planning, family law and property. Jackie's personal values brought into the firm make all the difference, a commitment to serving her community very strong ethics and a sense of civil justice and a dedication to having a safe work environment. Jackie is an accredited specialist in wills and estates. And n n m a s accredited mediator and collaboratively trained lawyer and has written and published three legal guides in case of emergency, our practical guide for young families in the case of injury or death, death and social media, a guide to your digital estate planning and the sandwich generation. She is also a runner, a former yoga instructor, and a student of A Course in Miracles, a podcaster of the show applied wisdom and an avid Fisher woman and for Mama like wow. In the meantime, grab your pens and paper and be ready to take some notes because I'm sure this woman has a million doing brilliant things to share with us today. Here we are tribe. She's here. She made it. I'm super excited to have her Yeah, say hello to everybody and share her deep wisdom. So we have had some discussions in the past with the tribe around you know, protecting ourselves and what are some of the legalities that we need to put into consideration when we build out our legacies as leaders and for our families. And I met Jackie, I don't think I shared this the tribe through somebody in our network, we did an introduction. And when I first met her, I felt totally aligned with what she was up to. And I feel like she's the best voice that I've come across so far to share this message. So everybody, this is Jackie Roman. And she is specifically an accredited wills and estate lawyer. So let's get started. Let's just jump right in Jackie, because I've already given them your bio. So they're already super impressed. I told them to get ready with their pens and paper. And I would love it if you would just start us off with you know, how did you decide to narrow your specialty of all things in law into you know, wills and estates? Can you share us that story?

Jacqui Brauman: 3:57

Yeah, well, I mean, I was lucky enough as a lot of people do to start in general practice. I didn't get to I didn't I wasn't funneled too early in my career, which was good. And so I knew that I liked working with private clients rather than business. So I wanted to work with families. But I didn't want to be working with families at the worst point in their lives either when they're struggling through something horrible. I wanted to actually be proactive. I wanted to work with people who wanted to work with me. And so wills and estates will was sort of I was sort of already doing some of it. But the thing that really drove me towards it was trying to convince young families that they needed to do their estate planning. So there was a particular case. I wasn't directly involved in it. A friend of mine was a prosecutor at the time. She was prosecuting a lady who had hit kit did a hit and run basically so she had driven through a red light at killed a young couple who are crossing the street. So, you know, no alcohol involved. No, it was just to nose a brain moment. So horrible for everyone involved. So you know, sort of 18 months down the track since this young couple have died, and they'd gone through the whole court process. And now we're finally getting to sentencing for this woman. The part of the sentencing process is that victims get to give some victim impact statements, this young couple had young children. So there were these two young kids that now didn't have their parents. And it came to light through the process. And the prosecutor, my friend really didn't understand what had happened to the victim's families until this point, either, that the young couple didn't have wills. So there were no guardians appointed for their kids. And so their respective parents, so the grandparents of the children on either side of the family didn't like each other. So they couldn't work out who they were gonna live with. They particularly didn't like each other, managing all this inheritance that was left for the kids. So there was a couple of million dollars at least. And the grandparents were fighting through the family court for these kids to be, who were they going to live with who's going to have parental responsibility, who's going to manage this trust for the kids. And these kids were just like, walking on eggshells try not to upset their respective grandparents when they've just lost their own parents. And I just look like though that young couple, that is the last thing that they would want for their family. And, you know, I see young couples like this all the time, they come to me and they're like, I don't really have much. Oh, well, you've got kids. Yeah, you've got a house with a huge mortgage on it. So no, you might not feel like you've got much equity. But you've got superannuation, and you've got life insurance. So there's a couple of million. And I just thought it ought to be done better. It's gotta be done better. Yeah,

Dianne Flemington: 7:11

you're in the kind of the same year, the same topic that I share with when I get into leadership and their legacies, and I really want to talk about age and you know, getting old, but then they get find themselves. They're like a couple, you know, they find themselves in a place where no, no, whatever actually wants to be, and unprepared. And so that's their, their impact generationally with that from what you heard, too. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's a really impactful story. And gosh, it's as much as we can plan for our lives. We can never play plan for those impromptu or spontaneous, horrible accidents. Right. So yeah, get it get it? I really. And I think the tribe, I want you to hear one of Jackie's values is proactive, and that's really, the tribe and I all share that as well. It's about proactive living. So that's one of the big reasons why I thought Jackie would be a big value for us on here, because she likes to think that way. So can we take some time to break this down a little bit, Jackie, in terms of, you know, wills estates and what we're actually talking about? So I think of this intersection. So if I think about my will, what are the important roles in a will to think about?

Jacqui Brauman: 8:27

Yeah, so again, I suppose if we use this young couple as the case study, almost. And I mean, not everyone will still have young kids once your kids are over 18. And they're adults, you know, you don't need to think about the Guardian role. But if you've got kids under 18, The Guardian role is one of your most crucial roles. And so you've got to think about who am I appointing to legally care for my children? Because you know, when you appoint a godparent and you do the you know, the ceremonial thing when you've got a baby it's not legal, like literally godparent that yeah, you've got parents are lovely sort of role models slash nice cultural appointment, but they have no legal rights or responsibilities. So Guardian appointment and you will super response super important. But the Guardians not necessarily the one that looks after your, the inheritance for your children. So then you think about, well, who's going to run the show? who's actually going to collect my assets, pay my debts and actually make sure that what I want done is done. And that's your executor, or executors, depending on when you're done. You can have multiple your executives can also be beneficiaries. But again, you think about you're leaving your children in the care of, say, an aunt. You don't want that aren't also exclusively in control of the inheritance. So then you've got to Ain't Okay Will who's financially responsible who can be an independent person who can oversee this. And so that's really important as well. And it can be a really long role like if your kids are under 10, for example, and you don't want them to get their inheritance till they're 25, like that someone who's got to be responsible for a long period of time and capable of doing that. So, really important, the executor, who does the role of administering your will, then becomes the trustee who looks after the inheritance for your kids. So those are the main important roles in your wills. And then of course, like who you're leaving it to is fairly important as well. But those are the primary things who's actually running the show and taking care of the money. And who's taking care of your kids. Yeah,

Dianne Flemington: 10:50

great. Yeah. Because those decisions still need to be made that regardless that you're not here anymore. Wow. And in my back of my mind, I'm a so I also do relationship coaching across teams, but also families, and I just can hear this reverberation, right, I can now I get a bit of a sense why people are a little bit more apt to not really want to tap into this. But I think with assist I know you also add to mediating. So do you help clients with this space as well, you know, when you're assigning a guardian role and executor? Do you want them? Do we want them to know in advance? Like, do we have these conversations and ensure they have all that? Yeah, what does that look like? Yeah, I

Jacqui Brauman: 11:30

do try and encourage people and sort of coach them into having a conversation, particularly if they're thinking that, you know, it's someone who's not going to be a family member, because we do often default to thinking well, we have to ask a family member because they are obliged by blood. And even though they might not be the perfect person. But no, I coached people through why actually think about what your values are, and think about who is closest in your life and who think about who's going to be more consistent for your kids, and who's going to bring them up with the values that you have, like if you don't actually have the same values as your siblings. But your friends live close to you, and they're raising their kids in the same way you're raising them. Like if all you're worried about then is not financially burdening if your friends have that conversation, because in fact, they won't think about the financial burden. They will think what an honor it is that you trust them so deeply. And so getting our heads around some of these conversations as well. And and, yeah, I think it's important to be asking people in Guardian roles, sometimes not so much in executive roles, because sometimes you might make someone anxious or nervous when they don't have to be anyway. You know, they don't have to actually think about it. But I certainly think that the big decisions around Eakins, definitely, yeah,

Dianne Flemington: 12:52

great. So what assets? You know, what assets are covered by a will on what aren't? What do we need to know there?

Jacqui Brauman: 13:04

Yeah. It's funny, like, we don't think, Oh, well, I have some assets that are estate assets and some assets that aren't. But then when you reflect you're like, well, actually, no, that makes sense, right? So a lot of estate planning often has to do with setting up family trusts and moving assets from how you own them into other structures, because other structures often outlive you. So you, things in your own name, usually end up in your estate. So they're covered by your will, but things you've moved into Family Trust, the trust doesn't die with you the control of the trust transfers, but the entity itself that stays the same, and so then that can be a consistent way of being able to switch control of something but keep something in tact and and keep the longevity of that. So in some situations, estate planning is all about minimizing the amount of assets that is in your will because we want to minimize, in some jurisdictions, there might be death tax, or they're really concerned that there'll be a dispute on their will. And so they want to make sure that what is disputed is minimized. So we can do these tricky things. Superannuation, particularly in Australia is also not an estate asset. And sometimes life insurance is not an estate asset, either some of these financial products that you own, you can actually nominate directly who your beneficiaries so it doesn't go through your Will it follows a nomination that you've provided, okay. And then other assets when you jointly own assets, they're usually not covered by your will either because if you jointly own something, it will automatically go to the other person who owns it. And so sometimes that's a little tricky way that we do things with older people who don't want you know, other family members to get things in their estate. Well Apple, let's move on lot of your savings into a joint bank account with someone that you actually want to get this and then it's not in your estate and no one can actually say anything about it. So yeah, there's there's lots of little things to do. So we need to think about, well, where are our assets? What is covered by the will? Do we strategically need to move things around? Or in fact, isn't the best thing to transfer everything under the will? Certainly in Australia, you have a lot of tax discounts moving it through the will. So that's often the most tax effective way, but not necessarily in other places. Right.

Dianne Flemington: 15:33

Got it. You said something that tweeter curiosity, how like an example would be Superannuation is how they can be directly assigned. But if somebody puts in the will a different name or assignment is there, one that reigns over is one that supersedes, there's a will supersede, say a direct assignment on an asset?

Jacqui Brauman: 15:55

Well, depends on it depends on a few things. So we have a nomination on some super funds, some of them lapse, so some of them are binding for three years, and then they lapse. So you really do have to understand some of these financial products and watch them closely. Because they don't actually voluntarily disclose some of this stuff, you've got to have a look and see, I got to remember to redo this thing every three years or else it's not binding, and then the will would take precedent, whereas if it was binding, it would. Yeah. Got

Dianne Flemington: 16:28

it. There's another valuable thing for you there. Right, you've probably helped them soar. You know, that's amazing. All right. So who can you leave assets to like beneficiaries? That were you just speaking to in terms of the trust that I get a little bit in terms of their?

Jacqui Brauman: 16:43

Well, yeah, yeah, a little bit. So I also wanted in this respect to talk about, again, some other jurisdictions, because, you know, we're very lucky in a lot of countries, we have complete testamentary freedom, like we can do whatever we want. Now, we'll, and a lot of people take that for granted. In some countries, particularly throughout Europe, they've got some civil laws where certain percentages of their estate is actually directed by the government. So you don't have complete testamentary freedom, like a certain amount has to be done this way. And then you can do what you want with the rest. But we have testamentary freedom. And so then we have to think, well, there are some obligations and responsibilities that then override that freedom as well. So even though we have freedom, we actually do have moral obligations to purse certain people in our lives. And that certainly, you know, our spouse, our children, and anyone else who might be financially dependent on us. So we do need to be thinking about what what our obligations are and meeting those obligations. But then, once you've met those, then how do you benefit people? Or how do you, again, I suppose, leave an impact and leave a legacy? You know, so thinking about what's the best way of leaving things to beneficiaries? Where can I include a charity or something that's really important in my life. Or again, like, if your values around education are really high, you know, I want to make sure that all My children have the chance of getting an equal education setting aside at Education Trust for that to happen. So just starting to get really creative about not only who but how we're leaving things to beneficiaries, and also maximizing the chance for the beneficiary to be successful as well. So thinking about, you know, if I've got a vulnerable beneficiary in my life, if I've got a disabled adult child, or if I've got someone who is a beneficiary who received some kind of pension, I need to make sure that they're not going to lose their pension because of the inheritance. I give them all that they're not going to have their inheritance squandered because they get taken advantage of by someone else, or they're, you know, they wasted or, you know, someone with drug and alcohol or gambling problems, what's our responsibility as well there, and sort of measuring that old balancing act with the rule against ruling beyond the grave because we can't do that either. So then we think about, again, we think more about trusts and creating trusts in wills and protective trusts or special disability trusts or other creative ways of someone inheriting their inheritance instead of as a lump sum, but actually inheriting an investment vehicle. So I think just adding that in there as an element of I don't want to add too much more complexity, but just think of it as creativity more than flex more and then than burdening yourself with our there's so many options. No, actually, there are so many options, which is a great thing.

Dianne Flemington: 19:55

Yeah, that sounds like there's a tool I use for a relationship system. But what you're talking about there really sounds like you really need to get great communication going with your clients or people who are bringing this task to you to get a really clear understanding of their relationships with these to these people. And the reliability brought up some pretty sticky points, you know, we have drug addiction in the family and our brothers and sisters or things like that, or even in our own children, right, like things can be squandered away, those are really, those are rocks that need to be lifted and looked under. Like, we can't just ignore those. Yeah, well done really great points. Earlier, you were talking and I was thinking about, you know, the medical decisions, powers of attorney. I mean, when people are in a state of a coma or their you know, it's not looking good. When does the Well, my first question would be, when does the will actually take effect? And how does like, you probably know where I'm going with this, but like medical decisions and powers of attorney, can you tell us a bit about that?

Jacqui Brauman: 21:03

Yeah, for sure. And I think a lot of people have the same confusion. They're like, well, I've got executors, so can't they look, after what I've gone? Well, actually will doesn't take effect until you die. So know, if you're still alive, even if you've lost capacity, they, they can't do anything. And so that's where thinking about powers of attorney is important as well, because I suppose if we're thinking about, you know, an emergency situation, or some kind of period of the client that we might have with a terminal illness or something like that, you know, we're not necessarily going to die suddenly. And we need to make sure, again, taking responsibility, that we don't leave a mess and make it more difficult for our loved ones. And it's having said that, we also want to have some control in who's going to be looking after our staff as well, right, we don't want to just leave it up to our potential next of kin, which might not be who we want. He may be and that's fine. But, you know, adult children who, who don't have a spouse, because they've separated their children, a young, their next of kin is one of their parents. And it's like, well, how is that who you want, maybe not sometimes so. So yeah, and again, jurisdictionally, every, every state, every country is different. So you do actually have to find out your own state. But generally, there's often a power for someone to make medical decisions for you. And then there's a power or multiple powers. So people to make other decisions. So financial, legal, personal lifestyle decisions. So there's a whole lot of categories that that it can cover. And within those, you can get even more specific. But yeah, thinking about your medical decisions. And sometimes this can be like the entry point to having some of these deep conversations as well, if it's tough to talk to your family about your death. And quite often, that is a bit of a superstitious or a no go zone for some people somehow bringing up oh, you know, if I, if if I got dementia, or if I had a brain and unit round near ism, or if I was in a car accident had a brain injury, or if I got a concussion, and my you know, my brain took a couple of months to recover or whatever, you can start having a bit of this conversation about how you want that managed and how you want your medical treatment managed. Which I think is generally a conversation that people are much more open to because they think about themselves, and then they think about how they want to be treated as well. And it's less, less taboo. And then it sort of opens the door to having a deeper conversation as well about well, you know, and then if I died, you know, that sort of situation, but appointing a medical power of attorney, someone to make those decisions for you, if you can't, is certainly important, and choosing the right person who you know, is going to be empathetic enough to consult with those around who needs consulting, who will be Integris enough that they will actually follow what you want, but also decisive enough, like it's quite a set of, of personality traits for someone to have.

Dianne Flemington: 24:25

Yeah, definitely. You kind of want to have a knowing of them enough to know that they're going to make hard decisions or be able to have those hard conversations. Yeah. Yeah. There's when we were discussing earlier about this conversation you're having there is in the list of questions, one about you know, what about having an accident that causes serious injury, but not death, kind of what we're talking about, but what showed up for me from that question is, you know, what about the legalities of you know, that person who's injured that can can't speak for themselves or coma. Now they're in I make up that there's some court case or something because it was a near fatal car accident and someone's that liable. And who handles all of that, then it's got to go on when they can't speak for themselves or? Yeah,

Jacqui Brauman: 25:17

yeah, absolutely. And that comes under one of the categories of these other powers of attorney as well. Okay. So yeah, you, you'd want someone who can take control and manage your life just to at least keep your life going. Because again, if you've had a brain injury, but you know, with some rehab, you might come back to your life. And so you need some kind of life still functioning to return to that, yes. Like if there is a car accident, or someone else is responsible for something. And, you know, in some places, how do we pay for this? Medical expenses and this rehab, there's got to be a claim made against someone. So yes, your power of attorney would have that legal ability to step into those that capacity and get that moving. Sometimes that person needs to go an extra step and actually get a legal appointment, depending on what jurisdiction they're in to confirm that they can be your legal guardian for the purposes of litigation. By okay. Yeah, in a lot of jurisdictions, literally just having the power of attorney document is enough, because that puts you into their shoes. For all legal decisions anyway. So yeah, again, really important person with a whole nother different set of skills, isn't it? Yeah.

Dianne Flemington: 26:36

So if from your position then as wills and estate, and I come to you and have all these important conversations and something happens? Are you the appointment? Like would you be a go to in terms of all of that, that maybe my executor would meet with first and you have, like there's an assignment to you can help them? If it was a claims type of environment, would you be able to support that executor into pointing them in the right direction? So are you ever a go to after this? I'll get sort of, I guess, my question.

Jacqui Brauman: 27:06

Yeah, quite often. And again, I suppose it depends on, I suppose is that getting into the depth of trust that you've built over time, or the depth of connection with the family that you've built through the process? Because, I mean, you touched on it before, you've got to get pretty deep, pretty quick and build some rapport quickly, to be able to get this stuff out of people. And be fairly blunt and direct about it. But empathetic enough not to make people upset. But then, if I'm particularly if I'm holding original documents, and something has happened, then yeah, the the attorney or the executive will come and say, you know, I need the originals. What do I do like what's next? And so then yeah, you do become a bit of a guide, but it doesn't have to be me. And this starts coming about, well how to people find someone that they can trust that will help them through the process. Some lawyers often write into wills and powers of attorney that the executors then have to use that firm. But it's not actually binding, it's just that executors don't know that it's not binding, they actually have a complete choice about where they want to take their work to and who they want to work with. Because the way I work might work for a lot of people, for sure, but not everyone likes the way I work. So, you know, people have to be free to choose whom they feel they can work and communicate the best with. But yeah, certainly, then it opens up this broader conversation of people having a starting point to go, Oh, my God, this has happened, what do I do? Because where else do you start? You don't want to go to face a Facebook forum.

Dianne Flemington: 28:52

Now. Now, I want to bring something in because you you there's two really great questions that showed up when you're talking there. One is, how do we talk to our families? Do you have any tips around you know, what's the starting point when we want to talk to our families about death? We kind of dabbled around it earlier. But you gotta you really have you heard of that he? And he couldn't re entry ways that work or support systems that help families talk about it. I know, I've done a lot of that in terms of relationship coaching when I was in Canada, but be curious how it looks from a legal point of view. That will all start there with that question first. What do you got for us and tips to approach your family about how to talk about my death or their death?

Jacqui Brauman: 29:35

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's a bit easier if someone started the process with me because I often say to people, like blame me just make me responsible. I've got big shoulders, like just go to your family and say, I've seen a lawyer about this. And the lawyer said, like, if that's what it takes to open the conversation, then that's fine. I can wear that. And if they have any questions, you know, you can always say like, I don't know I'll ask my lawyer like so. So then you can sort of move some of the responsibility if there's some angst around it or anything like that. Because I mean, that's, that's what, that's what I'm here for, anyway. Yeah. But I think that that is usually the best entrance point. But then I do speak to a lot of family members who want to have this conversation because they feel it's important for their other family members to do this process. Rather than just talking about it from their own deaths perspective, they actually want to check with their parents, you know, their aging parents have actually put things in place and don't still have the documents they had from 25 years ago. And, you know, that older generation can often be, you know, why are you asking, you're trying to bump me off and get your inherited race, they can be a little bit defensive about that. And so yeah, you do have to tread carefully and open it up from a different angle. Because if you go straight at it, yeah, you can get shut down. So again, I think if, if someone's in that situation, where they've got elderly parents, I still think it's best to come to it from the perspective of, like, I've just done this for my family, because I think it's super important, you know, how up to date is your situation, and how long ago, where are the originals, like, if, if they've moved a couple of times, you know, elderly people tend to keep things in a safe place, and then you can never find it. So having all these sorts of little questions and just coming at it from a different angle, you know, or if your elderly parents start having friends who are passing away, it's, it's also a chance to sort of open the conversation. Or if they've got some friends who are starting to go into aged care, that can be another opening to the conversation as well, like, you know, you've seen such and such getting an early stage dementia, diagnosis, you know, I can imagine what their families starting to do to prepare, you know, being responsible from their perspective, and, and not just putting their head in the sand and those sorts of things. So an indirect approach, but then not allowing people to get away with not having the conversation either. So I think there has to be a bit of persistence, because you've, you've got to get there. Again, particularly thinking about, you're the person who has the aging parents, like it's all going to land in your lap, if they haven't got it sorted out, it's going to be a mess that you have to sort. So as much as they can be prepared and make your life easier, the better as well. Without trying to control or, or making them feel like you're meddling. So it is a balance to walk the air as well. But then on the flip side to like, if you've got young adult children who are starting to make a family, you know, again, having even having the conversation that you've heard me talk about this case, with these young couple crossing the street and having the kids orphans might just be enough for them to go. Ah, but sometimes for young families, it's not until another parent of a school friend who's had an accident, something has happened in their life that will trigger them to think about it. But you know, whatever it takes sometimes, unfortunately.

Dianne Flemington: 33:17

Yeah, yeah, I like the whole seating it at first, but you know, doesn't matter. The job needs to get done. So then get to a point that figure out a way to get it done, right? Yeah. My 88 year old father is over from Canada spend the holidays with us, depending on anybody's listening to this. But I'm very much I'm like, what are you gonna do with all of those things in your house? Like you got a lot of stuff? Yes, it is sensitive. And I tried to add a bit of humor to it. And but it movement is tough, right? Because there's a lot of the defending so. What did I want to ask you? You know, I'm just noticing our time. And I want to just really offer the tribe some quick ways to assess view and mentioned a couple of times during jurisdictionally. There are limitations for lawyers. So you're in Victoria. So you can help people in Victoria, Australia, right. Yeah. But is there just some common things that we can look for if we're out of Victoria and not going to come to you that we'd want to ascertain some trust or what to look for when we're looking for in a state and wills? Lawyer? Yes,

Jacqui Brauman: 34:32

yes, for sure. wills are less jurisdictional powers of attorney and very jurisdictional. So preferably you find someone within the state that you're in. But yeah, how do you work out the level of skill of someone because if you don't, if you're not accessing legal services regularly, you know, you don't it's an industry that is just like a bit green Old isn't that lucky? How do you understand? Yeah, and, you know, I often draw similarities with medical professionals, you know, you have your GPS, your solicitors, who who can do a little bit of everything. And can probably do some things moderately well, but then you've, you've got your specialists. And whether they're an accredited specialist, or whether they've just dived in deeply, you want someone that's sort of doing a lot of this work, you know, at least 50% of their caseload is sort of doing this regularly, or else. They're just dabbling. And so how do you how do you work it out? Where do you start? Well, you start with the registering your state. So every state has a registered body where solicitors get their practicing certificate or their registration, a Law Institute or a law society or a legal services board, like that's, that's where you start. And then they have like a directory, and you can search lawyers via their practice areas that they do. And so that's a great place to start. So that can at least narrow you down. You know, COVID has taught us as well that we don't have to see someone within our own suburb, you can see someone on Zoom anywhere in your state, so you're not limited to have to think I have to go into the city now. No, you don't. So get your shortlist. I'm a big stalker, like if I'm going to use any kind of service. And I think this should apply to anyone using a lawyer. You look at their website, you see if you can see their face, if they don't have their photo, you're like, I want to see your face, you know, I want it I need to have a connection, I often have a look on their social media to see if they're doing things regularly. I often check out their LinkedIn profile, do they have a photo, if you don't have a photo on LinkedIn, I'm a little bit suspicious as well, I don't know I'm suspicious. But I want to see and see if I can trust someone, if they're if they're doing a little bit of video and audio sort of stuff in their marketing great to be able to see how they communicate. Like if this is a style of person that I can communicate with. If they don't do any of that sort of stuff. Some lawyers offer a free first half hour, make the most of it. It's not a given right that you get a free first half hour with a professional. So don't expect that, but see if they do. But I still think it's worthwhile. Like if you narrow down, you get your list, you do some stalking you narrow down to two or three that you want to try. I still think it's worth paying for an initial appointment just to see, ask the lawyer some questions ask about their fees. You know what, it's a lot about the vibe sometimes. And particularly for those Australians, that old movie the castle, it is it's the vibe about someone.

Dianne Flemington: 38:05

And I gotta watch that. Yeah, yeah.

Jacqui Brauman: 38:10

So get in the room with them. Because you have a short time with someone to do some deep work with you got to trust them, you got to make sure that they don't make you feel like you're, they're fobbing you off. Or they are discounting something that's important to you, or that they are putting themselves up on a pedestal, that they're not giving you options. You know, when a lawyer works out in their head, what the best option for you is without exploring it with you is often a red flag. So and the way that they communicate, the way that I communicate is often very direct, but hopefully simple language. But then I often take my communication while I'm doing the work with people limited to email. And so if someone wants to be picking up the phone to me all the time, I'm not the right lawyer to for them, you know. So again, just working out how someone likes to work, and whether that's going to work with how you want to work. I think it's really important. And, you know, people to understand that they are the consumer of these professional services. It's no longer the case that you put a lawyer up on a pedestal like get a second and third opinion actually work through this process. They've got to serve you not the other way around.

Dianne Flemington: 39:35

Yeah, those are excellent points. I'm taking notes like crazy person over here, because those are really valuable. And particularly I like the vibe, right? Get in the room with them, I think is super important. So whether it's a Zoom Room or something that can give you more additional information than just picking up the phone and who knows who you're talking to. Okay, so we've shortlisted You know, we've had our we've done our inspect during we've decided, you know, this might be the person, like, how do we get up and go? Because I really find that lots of us just put the brakes on. Yes, go, I really don't even want to do this like, yeah. What's our help us build our why? Like, what are some things to get? Like, what do we need to do? And what's what's, why make this so

Jacqui Brauman: 40:25

important? Yeah, well, if the story about the kids is not enough, true that, yeah, making sure your kids they're going to be okay, making sure your inheritance goes to the right person, making sure that you don't leave a mess for your family. You know, those are big wires within themselves. But if they are not enough to get you there, then you know, maybe you, you need someone that will just sort of pull you along a little bit. And so yeah, it's a big step to reach out and start this process. So wherever there is a lawyer who actually has an online form that you can start, and then they're like, Okay, we've got your online form, this is the next step, and you don't have an option, you don't have an excuse, like, if you're one of these people that, you know, needs to be railroaded a little bit, then, you know, find someone that will push you through the process. You know, I don't allow someone to leave my office without another appointment, because then they'll think about it too long. And then they're like, oh, it's all too hard. No, like, you've got to have your next appointment booked in. And you've got to be given a timeframe by when you need to be making decisions. Or else, you know, the head will go back in the sand and just stay on the list of things to do forever. But yeah, yeah. And you'll feel no

Dianne Flemington: 41:45

forever, isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, what came up when you're sharing that was, I don't want to be that person that there's telling that horrific story. And I'm over here going, Oh, my God, I'm not prepared. Or I have the choice. And I can sit there and go, Oh, my God, that is terrible. But I think everything's done and dusted. Like, I've got everything looked after. And that's why Yeah, and I think the last time I

Jacqui Brauman: 42:11

spoke to you, I also said, you know, it's 100% that every one of us is going to die. It's just a matter of time, right? Why do we pretend like it's not gonna happen? Um, hopefully, it doesn't happen soon. And it's funny, like, a lot of people doing this process don't want to think about their death, because then they think they'll do their will and it will happen, right. But I've got to say, the estates that I handle for young people like and, you know, under 50, or in their 50s are generally estates that the haven't had their wills done, right. So if you superstitious maybe getting your wills done is actually going to prolong your life because you know, you're

Dianne Flemington: 42:55

not gonna be worrying about it. We know that worries bad like stress, it breaks down or aging factors. So yes, that's a really valuable, you got an anti ager serum and over there, I think.

Jacqui Brauman: 43:10

That's totally Yeah, the fountain of youth.

Dianne Flemington: 43:15

So before I let you go, Jackie, I have three fire. See questions for you. Are you ready?

Jacqui Brauman: 43:21

I am.

Dianne Flemington: 43:21

I am. So we're always want to know from the tribe. How old do you want to live a healthy life too?

Jacqui Brauman: 43:29

I always say 120. And people laugh at me. But I'm absolutely serious.

Dianne Flemington: 43:32

Yeah. Yeah. Let's go in the club. Girl, you and I were in 120. Club. I love it. And so what's going to allow? What will that allow you to be do or have in your life?

Jacqui Brauman: 43:44

It'll allow me to reinvent myself multiple times and read everything and expand myself and just become this wise old.

Dianne Flemington: 43:53

Yeah, I love it. I like the reinvention and all that. I just saw, like this stage, this person sitting on a hill of you just sitting there with all this wealth and knowledge. Right? Beautiful. But what is something that scares you about growing older?

Jacqui Brauman: 44:10

It discrimination, like I'm not worried about I feel like my mind will be fine and physically I'll be fine. But I think how people perceive me, and I'm often very aware of that when I have elderly people and aware that I should be talking to them like they are my equals that I shouldn't discount them that I shouldn't treat them like children and I just worry that you know, people will see an old person and just think are they're precious or they're not capable or Yeah.

Dianne Flemington: 44:41

Yeah, got it. So how do you manage that fear?

Jacqui Brauman: 44:45

Well, I don't have to worry for a while yet.

Dianne Flemington: 44:50

Yeah, got it. And I also want to inspire you to notice how you are like, just continue to keep noticing how you are around that job. All right, so we don't get karma or something I don't know. But that's a good way of learning how we're being because we're, we're teaching others in our own existence that our own behaviors that are around us so. So who is the coolest person that you know, dead or alive? That's older?

Jacqui Brauman: 45:19

I well, I don't know her, but I've seen a fair bit of publicity about the iron nun. And I think that's so awesome. Because she's doing you know, triathlons and Ironman things and what she's in her 80s or 90s, I just think, oh, wow, that's so gonna be me. I'm sort of waiting until I get into that age category to be in the Masters because there's so few in the masters that, like, you'll be winning all the time.

Dianne Flemington: 45:45

I'm with you on that. I love that. I'm a cyclist. So that's where I'm at. Can't wait to like the next year flip on the categories. I'm not fearful at age, I just got to make sure I can keep cycling and keep up with so I can finally win a medal.

Jacqui Brauman: 46:01

Yeah, that's where I'm at.

Dianne Flemington: 46:04

That's awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. Jackie, I am certain The tribe has heard a lot. And I imagine that there's lots going on in their mind about how they're going to take their next step. And they will take their next step. So for those of you are listening, who are in Victoria area, Jackie's absolutely accessible to you. So you'll see in the show notes, we'll put all their contact details in there for you to reach out to. If you're not sure of where to Why don't you pose your questions to me first. And let me see if I can answer them just so I can not have you all lead Jackie's email and her not get back to you as quick as she needs to. And but I think she's given you some really good tidbits in terms of how to go find that particular lawyer and how to establish a trust and and see if they're workable with you. Those are really amazing points that she brought up there. So thank you, for those those will help me as well. All right. So as always, you are an inspiration to me, and to those who have been listening. So I hope that they have taken your message seriously. There's been lots of great storytelling in here that we can learn from. And for those of you who are interested in getting coaching on how maybe to walk through this, do you do that on the side, like even though that you're could you are you? Do you have a point of your practice that you can help coach people through even though they're not in the Victoria area? Yeah, I

Jacqui Brauman: 47:36

do. Actually. It's it's my passion project. It's a bit of an access to justice, sort of legal literacy, education, and it's for women, so sorry, guys. Yeah, legally wise women is where I help women as a safe place to land to learn how to you know, engage the right person and where to start.

Dianne Flemington: 47:55

Yeah, beautiful, great. And those details will be available from both channels as well. And men, hey, I'm here as a resource I work with law firms is part of my practice. So I'm happy to help you out and point you in directions, whatever you need coaching on as well. So I wish all of you nothing but healthy, long, fulfilling life, live with passion, love and kind connections. And I will see you all later on. Thank you, Jackie. Talk to you soon. Ciao. For now.